Tackling Men's Mental Health Transcript
INTRODUCTION
Katie Goodrum: My partner, when I met him, was going through a difficult divorce, and when it finally went to court, he told me he couldn’t do life anymore. I went through so many emotions, like panic, feeling naive and unsure what to say. It was a shock.
I would love to be part of a change that encourages men to talk instead of internalising everything until they explode under the pressure.
Often, men don’t talk about things until they reach a crisis point, and that has to change, as we’re never going to break the cycle otherwise. I want the men in my life to be the best versions of themselves.
Paul Sutton: Katie Goodrum is the founder of And Then, a men’s underwear brand with a mission to help men become the best versions of themselves. The company donates 50% of its profits to men’s mental health charities.
Katie started the company because she felt that the decline in men’s mental health has been brutal to witness. She experienced this firsthand, and with a young boy to bring up, she wanted to do something to help.
With this week being World Mental Health Day, today’s show asks some pressing questions: what are the issues affecting men’s mental health, and how can we address them?
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PS: I'm Paul Sutton, and this is Middle Man, the show for midlife men and the people who love them.
EPISODE
PS: Katie, you’re the founder of And Then, a men’s underwear brand that is as much about supporting men’s mental health as it is about providing, for want of a better word, support for “the essentials”. Can you tell me why you became so interested in mental health? What’s the story behind that?
KG: The story is that I’ve been impacted a lot by men in my life who have faced challenges with their mental health. My partner, when I met him, was going through a tough divorce that lasted for a number of years. On one occasion, when it finally reached court, he told me he couldn’t do life anymore, which was a huge shock for me. I hadn’t expected that from him. Naively, I thought there would be just one day in court, and the entire divorce process would be over. Little did either of us know that it was just the beginning of a much longer ordeal. So, that was my first experience of it firsthand.
PS: And as I understand it, he wasn’t even with you when he told you that?
KG: No, he wasn’t. He was in a different city in the UK, about a two and a half-hour train journey away from where I was.
PS: How did you respond at the time? That must have been terrifying.
KG: It was, because it was so out of character for him. He was usually the one who saw the positive side of things. I had spoken to him that morning, and he was relieved that the court date had finally arrived. So, it was a real shock to hear those words.
I went through so many emotions: panic, fear, feeling naive and unsure of what to say. It was overwhelming, but I knew I couldn’t show my panic to him; I had to remain calm. Yet, the fear I felt was immense, especially knowing he was alone, far away, and struggling.
The aftermath dragged on, and he didn’t want to talk to immediate family or friends, feeling quite isolated. I didn’t know where to turn for help for him, or even for myself to process it. It was a rough, rough period, and I know it’s common—many people go through difficult divorces, especially when children are involved. I’ve also seen the impact on my friends whose partners have gone through postnatal depression, and the ripple effect it has on families. I’ve worked in the construction industry too, where the rates of suicide are alarmingly high.
PS: Was your partner normally open about his feelings, or did this come as a complete shock?
KG: It was a complete shock. He was open to the extent that most men are, but his emotional intelligence wasn’t particularly high. He’d talk about things, but never in a way that suggested he was in such a bad place. In hindsight, he was obviously depressed. The divorce was ugly, and the impact of not seeing his children every day was enormous. He spoke about missing them and how he felt, but it never came across that things were that dire.
PS: So, obviously that had a huge impact on you personally. What led you to decide to do something about it and then create And Then? How did you make the leap from one thing to the other?
KG: Once he was okay, I moved into a new role, managing projects across three continents. I found myself waking up multiple times in the night to check whether there were any issues or crises on site. Suicide rates in construction were on my mind constantly. The company I worked for was passionate about supporting employees’ mental health, but I still woke up at night checking emails. It never really left me.
Then my brother went through a separation and the challenges of co-parenting. My father was diagnosed with cancer, which had a huge impact on the family’s mental health. Then COVID struck, and the impact on people’s mental health was evident. After I was made redundant, I thought, why not start something new?
My little boy was born during the lockdown, and I wanted to raise him differently—to communicate openly and to break the cycles of the past. The idea for And Then came about because I wanted to find a basic yet meaningful way to address mental health. Underwear is a necessity, and much like your thoughts, it’s private unless you choose to show it. It’s the first thing you put on and the last thing you take off. That’s where the concept of linking underwear with mental health came from.
The brand name And Then came about because we all have multiple “and thens” in our day: you get up, and then you have coffee, and then you start work. If we can inspire people to make their next “and then” a positive one, no matter how small, it can create a more positive experience of life and improve mental health.
PS: There’s a lot to be said for that. Many of the people I’ve spoken to on this podcast have mentioned the importance of shifting mindsets and living more positively and intentionally. The mission behind the company seems to be aimed at making a real change. How do you go about achieving that mission?
KG: Our mission is to inspire men to be the best versions of themselves. Everyone’s story is different, and the idea is to encourage men to self-check and take responsibility for their own narrative. Being the best version of yourself might sound generic, but I believe it’s crucial because only you know your own story and where you want it to go.
PS: It sounds like you have a deeply personal stake in this. Your company donates 50% of its profits to men’s mental health charities, like Andy’s Man Club. Why did you choose that particular charity?
KG: I chose Andy’s Man Club because it felt raw and authentic. The men I know—family, friends, colleagues—I could see them in those settings. As I got to know the team, their ethos and vision aligned perfectly with what And Then stands for.
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PS: To mark World Mental Health Day, And Then is offering listeners 25% off any purchase of its fantastic underwear with the code MM25. When I say ‘fantastic’, I genuinely mean it. When I tried them on, my wife said to me, "Wow, if boxers can suit someone, they really suit you." We’ve been married for 16 years, and I’ve not had a compliment like that for a long time.
They also feel amazing—they’re made from sustainable bamboo and are genuinely the softest, most comfortable boxers I have ever worn. And not only that, but 50% of the profit from every pair sold goes to men’s mental health charities. That’s what convinced me to try them in the first place, and I can honestly say I won’t go back to another brand. To get 25% off, just head to andthen.shop and use the code MM25.
Look good, feel good, do good.
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PS: You mentioned raising your son and the difficulties of bringing up a boy in today’s society. I’m in the same situation—I want my son to have empathy, to be open with his emotions, and not feel that he has to bottle things up. I want him to be able to talk to me, his mum, or anyone else about how he’s feeling and what’s bothering him. But I’m acutely aware that he feels the pressure not to be like that. I find it a difficult time to be a father, given the expectations placed on boys. What are your thoughts on that? How do you feel about bringing up a boy now?
KG: I think it’s really tough. You find yourself in situations where you have to check your own reactions. Just this morning, as we were leaving the house, my little boy tried to help his granddad off the step by grabbing his hand. But his granddad let go, and my son fell and nearly hit his head on a brick wall. He said “ouch” several times, and I had to stop myself from saying, “Oh, come on, be brave.”
It’s hard, because if it were a little girl, I don’t think I’d have said that. We instinctively react differently depending on whether it’s a boy or a girl, and that’s something we need to consciously address.
PS: You’re absolutely right. I have daughters and a son, and I’m sure I react differently depending on which child it is. That’s something I need to be more aware of. It’s wrong, but I think it’s a generational mindset that’s been passed down to us. When I was a kid, it was very much a “boys don’t cry” attitude. So, although it’s wrong, I know I’ve internalised it.
KG: Exactly. Even down to activities like sports or school clubs—somehow there’s this lingering perception that certain things are “for girls.” My son once told me that something was “for girls,” and I had to firmly correct him, saying, “Absolutely not! Who told you that?” It’s crucial to break these stereotypes, whether it’s around school activities or household responsibilities.
Boys need to learn that no one is going to do everything for them. They need to know how to look after themselves, do household chores, and not expect others to take care of these things for them. It’s not like it used to be in previous generations, where the woman stayed at home, cooked, cleaned, and had dinner ready as soon as the man walked in the door. Things have changed.
PS: Absolutely. I’ve seen it myself with my son’s school. He’s 12 now, and last year the school had to address issues around the influence of people like Andrew Tate on the boys. The school spoke to all the students about it, not just the boys, but I think it was mainly aimed at them. It worries me because, although my son is bright and we’ve spoken openly about such topics, I know that some of these ideas might stick with him. Some boys might have fathers who sympathise with those perspectives, and that’s deeply concerning. It’s a difficult time to be a parent with so many external influences shaping young minds.
KG: Yes, it’s very challenging. I remember taking my son to visit a friend who has a daughter about a year older than him. He kept trying to kiss her, which was obviously innocent—he was only two at the time. But she said to her mum, “Don’t ever let him come to my house again!” It’s a difficult balance because, on one hand, I’m teaching him that showing affection is okay, and on the other, I have to explain that you can’t just kiss people without their consent. There’s no rulebook for these things, and as a parent, you’re constantly navigating between your own upbringing, societal changes, and what you want for your child.
PS: Yes, I can see that. And the pressure is intense because you’re trying to balance everything—instilling values, navigating society’s expectations, and managing external influences. It’s tough for boys, and a lot of my friends say they’re trying to raise their sons differently to how their husbands were raised because they want them to be more open and emotionally aware.
KG: It’s a challenge, but I think the fact that we’re conscious of it is a positive step. Many women are raising their boys not to repeat the patterns of their husbands or fathers, which is tough, but necessary.
PS: Yes, and that can be confusing for a boy, especially if his dad models different behaviours. It’s not a criticism of the mothers, but if a boy is being raised one way by his mum while observing different behaviour from his dad, it creates mixed messages. It must be difficult for children.
KG: Absolutely, and it’s even more complex now with so many relationships breaking down in the early years of a child’s life. Children often see their parents in very different contexts—different homes, different lifestyles—and that’s incredibly challenging for them.
PS: Earlier, you mentioned postnatal depression, and I know you have strong views on how it affects men. It’s well-known that women can experience postnatal depression, but the impact on men is rarely discussed. What are your thoughts on that?
KG: I don’t think it’s recognised enough. In antenatal classes, they mention that women might experience postnatal depression, but there’s no mention of fathers. Fathers often don’t know why they feel the way they do. It gets dismissed as sleepless nights or work pressures, and the dad might not even realise he’s suffering from postnatal depression. I’ve had friends whose partners have gone through it, and they didn’t know until it was too late. It needs to be articulated more so that dads can recognise the signs and get help early on, instead of waiting until months down the line when relationships are strained and families are struggling.
PS: Thinking back to when my first child was born—she’s 15 now—I suspect I may have suffered from some form of postnatal depression. I felt sidelined, which now, saying it aloud, seems almost pathetic. But it’s not—it’s natural. Mothers and babies have such a close bond, and while I wasn’t excluded, I felt out of place and struggled to articulate that feeling.
KG: Exactly. When a baby arrives, you think you’re prepared, but everything changes. As a mother, you’re just trying to keep your head above water and keep the baby alive. If the dad is feeling neglected or lacking purpose, it’s tough for both parents. It’s not that mums are ignoring dads, but they’re often just trying to survive themselves.
PS: Yes, and it’s hard for dads to find their place, especially in the early months when a mother’s bond with the baby is so strong.
KG: Yes, exactly. When my brother had his children, he articulated how much he wanted to be more involved, to do more than he felt he was allowed to do. So, I was conscious of ensuring that my partner could help as much as he wanted, because I knew how important it was for bonding. But as a mother, you’re often fighting to keep your own head above water while looking after a new baby, and you just don’t have the capacity to think about how dad might be struggling.
If he’s feeling left out, it’s not because he’s being neglected deliberately. It’s just that mum is so focused on surviving and keeping the baby safe that she doesn’t have the energy to see beyond that. If dads don’t feel they have a purpose or lack confidence in finding one, it can be really difficult for both parents.
PS: I wonder if there’s a link between this lack of recognition for postnatal depression in men and wider issues with men’s mental health. It seems to me that male mental health is only now starting to be discussed more openly, and the old “man up” mentality is gradually being challenged. Do you think there’s still an imbalance in how men are thought of and treated compared to women? Is it improving?
KG: I think the term “mental health” covers such a wide range of issues—postnatal depression is just one of them. Grief, work pressures, illness—there are so many aspects that fall under the mental health umbrella. As for men, I honestly believe it depends on the individual and their circumstances. Some men and women have high levels of emotional intelligence, but many don’t.
Historically, men were expected to be the providers, and it’s only recently that this has started to shift. There’s now an opportunity for men to explore roles that were previously considered ‘women’s work,’ like taking paternity leave and sharing the load at home. It’s not without challenges, but it’s definitely a positive change. However, we’re still in a transitional period, and there are industries and families where traditional roles remain strong.
PS: Yes, I think a lot of men in their 40s and 50s are caught between the expectations they grew up with and the reality of today’s changing society. They were raised with a clear understanding of what it meant to “be a man”—to be strong, to provide, to not show weakness. Now, many of them are seeing that the world has moved on, and they’re left questioning their place in it. It must be a difficult position to be in, and I think it’s having a significant impact on men’s mental health.
KG: I agree. There’s definitely pressure on men of a certain generation to live up to the traditional image of the provider, but things have shifted very quickly. Women want independence and careers of their own, and that’s great. I fully support that. But sometimes it feels like men have been left behind in that conversation. They’re still expected to be strong and stoic, but women are now expected to be able to do it all—be successful at work and at home. I’ve seen some industries go too far in trying to redress the balance. People are being hired because they tick certain boxes—gender, race, sexuality—rather than because they’re the best person for the job. That’s not healthy.
PS: It’s a difficult topic, isn’t it? What you’re talking about is the difference between equality and equity. We don’t want to elevate women by pushing men down. The goal should be to lift women up to where they deserve to be without it coming at men’s expense. It’s a balance, and right now, it feels like we haven’t quite got it right.
KG: Yes, and I think we need to be allies. Men should support women, and women should support men. We need to work together. The healthiest way forward is mutual support, rather than a tug-of-war over who gets which roles. It’s complicated, and it’s not as simple as a box-ticking exercise. In some industries, there just aren’t enough women coming through the ranks, which makes it look unbalanced, but it’s not due to discrimination; it’s because there aren’t enough women studying those subjects or choosing those career paths. It’s a complex issue.
PS: Absolutely. So, going back to And Then as a mission-driven company, what’s your biggest concern about male mental health? And what do you hope to achieve?
KG: I’d love to be part of a change that encourages men to talk more, to express their emotions rather than bottling them up until they explode. I want to help create a society where it’s normal for men to share their struggles and seek support. Women are naturally more inclined to talk to friends about their emotions, but men often don’t. Until talking about mental health is as normal for men as it is for women, the narrative won’t change.
I’d love And Then to be part of that shift, helping men to feel it’s okay not to be okay and encouraging them to communicate openly. And since men don’t often talk about their underwear, maybe we can use that as a way in to open up these conversations.
OUTRO
PS:
I hope you found today’s show interesting. Don’t forget to visit andthen.shop and use the code MM25 to get 25% off any purchase.
If you found this show useful, please share it with someone who might benefit from listening. You can also sign up for the Middle Man newsletter, which features articles and resources on the theme of the week, at middlemanpodcast.com.
Next week, we’re discussing the value of meaningful connections among men.
Adam Cranfield:
We do need to connect, but in the right way. Often, for men, it’s always about an activity—doing something together. But the people who will make the most impact on your life are those with whom you can form deeper connections.
PS: See you then.