Midlife Stories - Simon Burgess Transcript

INTRODUCTION

Simon Burgess: My life and the journey that I've been on, being in the industry I've been in, it's been like a really good friend to me, always there. It's allowed me to have a life, a family, a house, go on holidays – all those kinds of things. And at the moment, that friend that’s been so good to me all these years, I feel it’s not really serving me anymore.

It’s been interesting to chat to people with insights into how they’ve tackled change, but it’s just shone a light on how I’m wired so differently to some of them, which makes me question, why can’t I make some of these changes? Why can’t I do some of the things I want? What’s stopping me? Because it’s really difficult sometimes to get your head around that.

Paul Sutton: After several years of feeling ill at ease with himself and the direction of his life, Simon Burgess reached a point late last year where enough was enough. To explore how others were dealing with the challenges he was facing, he set up a podcast called Life’s Second Act, where he speaks to people about how they’re making the second half of their lives count.

Despite a productive career and seemingly all the trappings of a successful life, Simon admits to questioning his place in the world and suffering from the self-doubt that plagues many midlife men.

On today’s show, he shares his story and reveals what he’s learned from the people he’s spoken to.

<THEME MUSIC>

PS: I'm Paul Sutton, and this is Middle Man, the show for midlife men and the people who love them.

EPISODE

PS: Simon, I see us somewhat as kindred spirits, I think, in terms of where we are in our lives and the processes we’re going through. You’re a video producer, yeah, that’s your career, if you like. But you started a podcast back in February. I think I’m right in saying February, yeah?

SB: The thoughts of it were in January, but it started to really take shape in February, yeah.

PS: Okay, so now you’ve done 20-odd shows, and I thought it’d be interesting to discuss with my audience what you’ve learned from the people you’ve spoken to. So I guess the starting point is really to talk a bit about your journey and where you were before launching the podcast. You’ve gone through a bit of a transitional stage, or perhaps you’re still in it. Where did it all start?

SB: Well, to be honest, I’ve always struggled a bit with my mind, if I’m really honest. But I don’t think it came into sharp clarity until about 2018, when I started to feel unsettled and out of sorts.

To give some context to where I am now, I went through a difficult patch with my wife, which led to me moving out for about nine months. I moved in with my dad, which was actually local, and that nine months ended up being good quality time with him. After the nine months, my wife Vicky and I sorted things out, and we’re now stronger than we’ve ever been.

In hindsight, what seemed bad at the time turned out to be beneficial for our relationship. It also gave me nine months with my dad, who, six months after I moved in, had a stroke.

This really knocked him, and in that same year, when my wife and I were having difficulties, she also lost her mum. Then, three or four months after my dad’s stroke, my mum passed away, and my dad died the following year – all amidst COVID.

So, by 2018, I felt something was off. This was compounded by COVID, losing my parents, and my wife losing her mum. I came out the other side a real mess of emotions. I think burnout also played a part. I’d worked very hard for years, and everything came to a head.

By the end of 2023, I was trying to work through it all, feeling so unsettled and questioning my life and purpose. Work played a role in this too, especially with the changes in the video industry. So, it was all a bit of a muddle.

With work quiet in January, I thought I’d start speaking to people, explore what I was going through, and maybe create some clarity.

PS: That’s a lot to go through in the last five or six years – quite overwhelming. You said you felt unsettled around 2018. Do you think that was the start of this midlife questioning, or was it everything piling up that became the catalyst?

SB: Looking back, I think so. I do believe it was the start of something going on in my head. But then I think, well, that was six years ago; surely, I would have worked through it by now. But yes, I believe that was the beginning of something.

PS: It’s easy to dismiss it. I went through a spell of anxiety a year or two ago and saw a therapist to help me process it. She started by asking what had been going on in my life. Initially, I thought it came out of nowhere, but then I remembered my dad had passed after a long degenerative illness, my mum has dementia, work had gone quiet, and other things. When she laid it all out, I realised, “Oh, I suppose that’s a lot.”

SB: And how did that make you feel when she laid it all out like that?

PS: I think it helped me recognise where it came from. It wasn’t as if it came out of the blue. The same applies to you; you went through a lot in five years. It’s no wonder you felt the way you did by the end of last year.

SB: It does make sense. But it’s strange to accept that it happened to me because it’s often other people who go through these things. Accepting that it might have happened to me is something I still struggle with.

One conversation I had with a psychotherapist helped, as they told me this is a natural thing, and my feelings weren’t unusual. That conversation made me feel a bit more normal, like it wasn’t just me.

PS: At the end of last year, did you relate how you were feeling to a midlife transitional phase, or did you think you were reacting to trauma?

SB: I felt like it was a midlife response to me not coping with life. Only after speaking with people and starting therapy in January did I realise that trauma might have played a part. Initially, I thought I was just struggling with midlife, my age, where I was, and my work life.

PS: About your work life specifically, something we’ve talked about before, you’ve found yourself in a situation where the industry has moved on, and perhaps you haven’t quite moved with it – if I can put it that way. Can you talk more about that?

SB: Yes, as with any industry, things change, and you have to adapt. I’ve been self-employed for about 35 years, so adapting has always been part of the job. But with video, things have changed, and sometimes I wonder where I add value when anyone can pick up a smartphone and create content.

A study I saw mentioned that around 46-48% of businesses now create content in-house, without going to external companies. So, there are lots of things at play – innovation with equipment and software, and sometimes clients don’t value quality as much; it’s more about getting something done quickly.

Times are changing, and I’ve done my best to keep up, but there’s this nagging thought about how long I have left in this business. As a friend said, younger clients don’t necessarily want their dad telling them how to make a video. I get that. So all this plays into my thoughts about purpose and what I’m here to do.

At 55, I feel like I’ve peaked too soon. If I were 65, I could think about winding down, but I’m not – I’m 55, and I want to be passionate about what I’m doing. All of that impacts how you feel.

PS: Yeah. My brother is a commercial photographer, and I think he's faced the same challenges as you, where much of the work is now done in-house, not always to the highest quality, but that’s the direction things have gone, right? So budgets have shifted too.

SB: Absolutely. And, you know, I could sound like an old man saying it, but I think it's all good and will bring about innovation in different ways. We could talk for ages about AI and how that might play a role in video, audio, and writing. We need to keep up with it, but still, I wonder, where do I really add value? Unless I truly believe it in my heart, it’s difficult to go out and promote it.

PS: The point about being an "old man" in front of 30-year-olds resonates so much. I’ve been saying this for about two years. Much of my work involves training – I go into companies and talk to communications teams about using social and digital media more effectively.

It’s becoming increasingly challenging because I stand in a room full of 25- to 30-year-olds, with my grey hair, and I think, “How long can I keep doing this?” It’s not that I don’t value the experience I bring – they haven’t got that, obviously – but they know so much more about some of this stuff than I do. There’s a balance, but I feel like I’m tipping over the edge of it.

SB: Exactly, so it’s not surprising we feel this way. It’s part of life, isn’t it? Time and again, I’ve found that feeling unsettled is often a signal that change is on the horizon.

If we take all this on board, we could say, “This is okay; this is part of it.” Change is coming, the signals are there. The challenge is knowing what to do with it. I’ve always been resourceful and adaptable, having worked for myself all these years.

But this has thrown me a bit because I don’t quite know where to put that next step. It’s not that I don’t have the skills to adapt, but sometimes I just don’t know where to go with it. It’s difficult.

PS: It really is. So, going back to the end of last year, when you decided in early January to start a podcast because of how you were feeling, was that out of curiosity about what was happening to you? Why start a podcast?

SB: Well, I’ve always had an interest in the mind and how it works. I attended my first meditation class back in 1997 and found it invaluable, especially with teachings about how we perceive the world and our emotions.

From that point, I’ve read books, watched videos, listened to podcasts, and so on. But I never really did anything with it beyond personal interest. The podcast idea came to me when I was driving back from dropping my daughter off at Cardiff Uni.

I dictated a bunch of notes into my phone, throwing out ideas for the podcast – who I could interview, what the themes could be, reasons to do it or not. Then, I stopped for a coffee, copied everything into ChatGPT, and asked it to make sense of it all.

By the time I got home, I had a four-page document with organised themes, potential guests, and reasons for doing it. That made me think, “Maybe there’s something here.” I’ve always been curious about what’s going on in my head, and I enjoy interviewing people. Trying to get a good performance out of someone and telling their story is something I find really enjoyable.

So, I combined those two interests, put together a website, and didn’t overthink it. Normally, I’d have hired someone to design a logo and set up a website, but this time I did it myself to avoid losing momentum. Within about two weeks, I had the website set up, learned how to post podcasts, and got started.

It felt good to create content that I had control over, to explore themes around the mind and how we view ourselves at this stage in life, and to marry that with something I enjoy – interviewing people.

PS: So you decided to talk to people who have been through this stage and are now approaching or in their second half of life. How did you go about finding those people?

SB: Initially, it was people I knew who I felt had a story to tell or whose approach I admired – people who seemed wired differently to me. I wanted to understand how they could think in ways that I don’t. So it started from there and grew by being open to opportunities.

That’s actually how we met, Paul. I saw one of your posts and found what you said really resonated with me, so I reached out, and our conversations evolved from there. I used LinkedIn, reached out to people I knew, connected with people they knew, and received recommendations. That’s how it continued to evolve.

PS: It sounds like you’ve been on a journey, but am I right in thinking you’d still consider yourself on that journey?

SB: Absolutely, without a doubt. It’s been fascinating to chat with people about how they’ve tackled change. But it’s also highlighted how differently I’m wired, which has made me question why I can’t make some of these changes.

I think one recurring theme is me needing to give myself permission to try something different. I’ve learned a lot about people, this stage of life, and had some wonderful conversations on and offline. But am I any closer? I don’t think so.

PS: Not any closer since February?

SB: I’m probably more tuned into knowing what needs to change in me, which I wasn’t aware of at the start of the year. Some common themes have come up that resonate with me, and I think, “I need to take note of that.”

But actually responding to it is difficult. My self-doubt or imposter syndrome kicks in, and I wonder if I should really allow myself to do that. It’s something I’m working on with my therapist – understanding what’s stopping me from doing the things I want.

It’s difficult sometimes to get your head around why you can’t be different or embrace things others do so well.

PS: That’s not easy, though, is it? It’s one thing to talk to 20 people and admire things in them, but it’s quite another to go and do it yourself. Can you give me an example of one of these things?

SB: Yes, a common theme is embracing change and listening to intuition. I’ve spoken to so many people who have happily embraced change, allowing it to unfold and seeing what it brings. They give themselves permission to make changes and see what happens. I find that difficult.

I spoke to Neil Pitts, who is someone who really lives life to the fullest. He works to live, rather than lives to work, and he has this attitude that everything will be okay. He’s done some amazing things like mountaineering and guiding, and he once attempted to ski the length of Norway.

He grew up with his dad telling him, “It’ll be alright,” which gave him a sense of reassurance. So, embracing change has been a recurring theme, and I think it’s something I need to work on – to accept uncertainty a bit more.

Another theme is intuition, which is fascinating. We all have it, but acting on it can be tough. In one conversation, we talked about mind, body, and spirit. The mind and body are clear, but the spirit – that’s intuition, which can be hard to grasp.

My intuition is telling me I need to make a big shift, to do something I’m passionate about. But following through on that is hard. The industry I’ve been in has been like a good friend to me; it’s allowed me to have a life, a family, a house, and go on holidays. But right now, that friend isn’t serving me in quite the same way. Financially, yes, but emotionally and purposefully, I’m not sure. So, part of me is telling me to make a change, but I’m really scared to do it.

PS: So, are you saying that the people you’ve spoken to, where intuition has been a theme, have been willing to go beyond practical and logistical limitations? Have they managed to set those things aside and say, "No, I’m going to follow my intuition and do this"?

SB: Yes, in every case. I’m not saying their journeys weren’t challenging or that they happened quickly – it took time to work through. For instance, I spoke to a lady named Rachel. She changed her career in her late 30s or early 40s, and then separated from her husband in her early 50s, which was a huge life shift. One day, she just woke up and thought, “Is this it? Is this my life now?”

She wasn’t prepared to accept that, so she made some major changes. It wasn’t an easy journey, leaving her husband and career, but she’s now found her purpose. She’s living her second act with passion, but she’d be the first to admit it wasn’t easy. Sometimes we can be impatient; we want change to happen quickly and to know it’ll be positive. But of course, you don’t know – that’s the whole point. You’ve got to take the leap.

PS: It would be so much easier if you could see beyond it, wouldn’t it? If you could say, “Yeah, I’ll stick it out for six months if I know it’ll work out in the end.”

SB: Exactly. I spoke to another woman, Kathy Walker, an actress. One surprising thing that came up in our conversation was the importance of faith to her. She had this absolute confidence that everything would be alright because she felt a greater force was looking out for her.

That was fascinating because her journey has taken her in unexpected directions, and sometimes, when you’re open to new paths, something you didn’t anticipate appears and becomes essential in your life. So, giving things a chance and listening to your mind, having the confidence to pursue those ideas, can often lead to something meaningful.

PS: There’s the whole issue of self-doubt, isn’t there? It’s powerful, especially if you’re making a big life change – or even a small one. You need confidence to push through what will inevitably be a challenging transition. Do the people you’ve spoken to seem to lack that self-doubt, or are they able to say, “I doubt myself, but that’s okay, I’ll keep going”?

SB: Some are definitely stronger in that respect. I’d say they’re just wired that way. But many of them have still struggled with self-doubt. They know they need to work through it, and they’re actively doing what they can to push past it.

Self-doubt plays a huge part, and something we touched on earlier came up with Jeremy, who talked about “weak signals” – subtle indications that you need to act. Jeremy has been through so much: heart surgery, losing his son at 28, surviving prostate cancer, his mother’s dementia, and another heart issue earlier this year.

Despite all this, he’s one of the most positive people I’ve spoken to. He sees these challenges as just part of life’s journey. I admire his strength and his commitment to finding a new purpose. So many people our age are in jobs they’re not passionate about. It’s inspiring to talk to those who’ve had the confidence to push through and find real meaning in what they do.

PS: Is that mindset something you’re working on with your therapist?

SB: Yes, definitely. It’s about understanding why I struggle to do the things I admire in others.

PS: It’s fascinating, in a way – not to use you as an experiment!

SB: Well, I think it’s a bit like that, to be honest! I wonder why my mind works the way it does, why I see things as I do. I’m aware that our thoughts shape how we feel about ourselves, and in turn, how we feel about ourselves influences our thoughts. It can become a negative cycle.

Recognising that, catching myself when I have those thoughts, is crucial. Meditation helps with this, though I’ve fallen off the wagon in the past year, which is ironic since now’s the time I probably need it most.

PS: What you’re describing sounds like what a lot of coaches call “self-limiting beliefs” – thoughts that hold you back from moving forward. I’ve spoken to people who say this, but I haven’t had the coaching to really understand how to stop those self-limiting beliefs.

SB: Funny you should say that. In my last session, my therapist pointed out that some of my behaviours sounded like self-sabotage. I hadn’t thought of it that way, but it was eye-opening. I feel I should be able to change, to embrace this time in my life. I’m 55 and have done alright so far, so there’s no reason why I shouldn’t continue. But it’s an ongoing journey.

On the flip side, it’s exciting to speak with others who’ve been on similar journeys. It’s comforting to know you’re not alone in these thoughts, and talking openly about it is a huge opportunity for growth. Whether it’s with a therapist or a friend at the pub, just having that outlet helps a lot.

PS: Something we’ve discussed before is self-awareness – the ability to recognise your thoughts and have some vision of the future. Even if you struggle with implementing changes, that self-awareness is a huge step forward.

SB: Absolutely. Traditionally, it’s often said that men aren’t great at talking about these things, but I feel that’s changing. From some of the offline conversations I’ve had with friends, I sense a shift, and that can only be a good thing. There are huge benefits to being able to talk openly and to be kinder to ourselves.

It’s a bit of a cliché, but we don’t often put ourselves first. In your 40s or 50s, with children who might be more independent and perhaps older parents who still need you, it can be a sweet spot for growth and opportunity. Talking to others has definitely been positive for my journey.

PS: Do you feel freer to explore personal growth now?

SB: Yes, without a doubt. Society often sets expectations when we’re younger, telling us to be a certain way. It’s something I’ve noticed with my podcast guests as well – that transition from the “first act” to the “second act.” T

he first act is about the ego, about accumulating things, building a career, buying houses, and so on. The second act is more about the soul. It’s about editing your life, refining what matters, and maybe having more confidence in your abilities and who you are.

I feel more confident now to voice my opinions and set boundaries, which I wouldn’t have done years ago.

PS: One thing I’ve noticed is that nearly every guest I’ve spoken to who’s interested in this stage of life has experienced burnout. Coaches, doctors, everyday people – almost everyone has gone through it. How much of a factor do you think burnout has been among the people you’ve spoken to?

SB: It’s definitely been a huge part of many conversations. It’s made me reflect on whether burnout is something I’ve experienced too. I find it hard to accept, but when I hear others talk about it, I think, “That sounds like me.” To truly recover from burnout, I think you need space away from whatever was causing the stress. It’s only when you have time to yourself that new ideas can emerge.

Many people I’ve spoken to found they needed time out before they could see a new way forward. So, yes, burnout is a huge issue affecting many people, not just in midlife.

PS: Absolutely. I wonder if, for people who go through burnout, how they handle it afterward depends on their mindset or, as we discussed, self-awareness. If you’re conscious of it, burnout can be a trigger for change.

But if you simply plough on, then you might get through it but end up back where you started, missing a learning opportunity. Whereas if you can treat it as a chance to learn, at least something positive comes out of it.

SB: I completely agree. You have to be aware of it. I don’t think I realised I was dealing with burnout until this year, and even then, it took a while. Acknowledging it is the first step because then you can give yourself permission to say, “This is happening to me.”

Once you acknowledge it, you can take steps to create some space for yourself, allowing the possibility of change. And when you do that, you’re more likely to get through it and come out stronger.

PS: From the people you’ve spoken to, once they’ve come through burnout, do they generally emerge with a new sense of purpose or at least a desire to find one?

SB: Without a doubt. Many conversations I’ve had have focused on people’s journeys, and purpose has played a big part in it. They feel they’re contributing more, which makes them feel better about themselves, as they’re giving something back.

PS: When you say “contributing,” do you mean giving back to society, or how are they defining that?

SB: Yes, a lot of them are giving back by moving into coaching or roles that help others. I spoke to someone who left a high-flying city job to volunteer with the Samaritans. He’s in a financial position to do it, but he finds it personally rewarding, and he called it a privilege.

Many people moving into their second act are focusing on helping others through transition or change, rather than just focusing on themselves. But one conversation stood out – a man named Stuart Wilson talked about the importance of reflecting on where we’ve been, rather than just focusing on the future. He had a near-death experience as a teenager and often thinks, “If I hadn’t survived, I wouldn’t have met my wife, had my daughter, or helped coach people.”

He sees all these connections as things to celebrate. Sometimes we’re so focused on finding our purpose that we overlook the journey we’ve already taken.

PS: That’s a nice perspective. I have to admit, I don’t often look back and celebrate what I’ve achieved. Instead, I focus on the things I feel I did badly. It’s that negative mindset, isn’t it?

SB: Absolutely.

PS: How has this search for purpose affected your mindset over the last year? You’ve talked about going through burnout, changes in your job, and learning about yourself. Has it been similar to what I’ve experienced, where I feel my purpose has been raising my kids without much sense of who I am beyond that?

SB: Yes, I think that’s true. When you’re younger, with a family and a job, you don’t always have time to reflect on what you want personally. This stage in life gives you a bit more space, especially if your children are more independent and you’re a bit more secure financially. It allows you to consider what you could do next.

For years, my work and personal life were so blurred that I didn’t have much outside of family and work. Now I’m thinking, “What’s next?” I don’t want to write myself off – I’m only 55, but I do wonder where to go next.

PS: Have you been actively working on defining your purpose for the next 30 years, or does it feel too early?

SB: My intuition tells me that what we’re doing with our podcasts might be part of it. I don’t know how to make a living out of it or where it’ll lead, but I feel drawn to it. Sometimes the self-doubt creeps in, but I’m trying to be patient, giving myself time to reflect and not beating myself up for not having all the answers. Does that make sense?

PS: I totally get that. I’m impatient – I want change now – but I know it won’t happen overnight. Friends have given me ideas for the podcast, but my stock response has been, “It’s too early.” Part of me wants it all to happen now, but I’m trying to pace myself. Yet I wonder if I should be pushing harder, like the guests who’ve trusted their intuition and just gone for it. I’m not sure.

SB: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I feel this might not be my final destination but a stepping stone to something I’m not yet aware of, which I find exciting. Creating content this year has been liberating because, for the first time, I’m making something that isn’t for a client. It’s freeing to create without constraints, allowing the direction to evolve naturally. This journey might lead somewhere unexpected, and when it’s right, I’ll know. I have no regrets, so I feel positive about whatever lies ahead.

OUTRO

PS: I hope you found today's show interesting. You can find Life's Second Act wherever you listen to Middle Man.

If you found the show valuable, please share it with someone who might benefit as this really helps the show grow.

You can also sign up to the Middle Man newsletter at middlemanpodcast.com. 

Next week, we’re talking about the role of shame in midlife wellbeing.

Rob Etherson: The shame containment strategy is to extract a sense of wilderness from external circumstances. When those external circumstances start to dissipate and dissolve, they contain shame, which is always there and it starts to bubble up

PS: See you then.